Author Topic: NZFS vs ZFS  (Read 1122 times)

Offline dremeier

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NZFS vs ZFS
« on: October 26, 2015, 05:54:55 pm »
Hello Folks ;)

I would like to give you my experience with traid (NZFS ) and ZFS/ZPOOL.

I use ZFS since 2 years with two pools.
Due to ZFS is not very flexible I found FlexRaid as a very flexible System. Tried out in a Virtual machine and it looks good after 2 days of testing an reading. tRaid is not easy to use and you can make a lot of mistakes but it is much more flexible as ZFS.
ZFS is very easy to handle and you can find a lot of howtos, but it is very risky due to comandline operation only.
With ZFS you can use any Kernel version, with tRAID you can use only one specified Kernel version.
Unfortunately I had a lot of trouble to install the right kernel for traid and to get the system running (I guess with a new System installation it will work). But the main negative thing is the performance.

to create a 10GB tRaid Pool takes 10 hours!
to create a 10GB Zpool takes 5 seconds!

Copy large files of more than 1GB (rsync) within the same System/Controller:
with tRaid, average speed is 50MB/s (with landingdisk)
with ZFS, average speed is 180MB/s

The CPU Load average with tRaid in copy or create is 100 with ZFS only 4. (With a two Core CPU only a load of 2 can be handled at a time.)
Of course the CPU% is nearly 100% on both.

My system is a Supermicro Serverboard with Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8600 @ 3.33GHz, 2 cores and 8GB RAM, Linux Ubuntu Server 14.04.3.
The disks are on a LSI Logic SAS2008 SATA/3 Controller.

 
What are the experience of other users?

Offline Brahim

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Re: NZFS vs ZFS
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2015, 07:18:20 pm »
tRaid is not easy to use and you can make a lot of mistakes but it is much more flexible as ZFS.
ZFS is very easy to handle and you can find a lot of howtos, but it is very risky due to comandline operation only.
How is a system that provides an easy to use GUI more complicated than a command line tool with lot of technicalities?  ???
Any system that is unfamiliar always feels more complicated than one you are familiar with. You will find tRAID super easy once you become comfortable with it.

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With ZFS you can use any Kernel version, with tRAID you can use only one specified Kernel version.
Unfortunately I had a lot of trouble to install the right kernel for traid and to get the system running (I guess with a new System installation it will work).
Or you could just use a supported distro. ;)

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But the main negative thing is the performance.

to create a 10GB tRaid Pool takes 10 hours!
to create a 10GB Zpool takes 5 seconds!
Either you mean TB and not GB or you are being sarcastic.
Further, you can initialize a tRAID array in seconds by choosing to do nothing and defer parity computation to later, which is exactly what your instant zpool initialization does.

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Copy large files of more than 1GB (rsync) within the same System/Controller:
with tRaid, average speed is 50MB/s (with landingdisk)
with ZFS, average speed is 180MB/s
First, tRAID is not designed for performance as it does not stripe data. It is designed for a different purpose. If you want performance, then you need FlexRAID Standards.
Last, if your Landing Disk is only giving your 50MB/s, then that your own choice. You could easily use a fast SSD as landing disk and get 500MB/s.
So, really pointless comparison.

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The CPU Load average with tRaid in copy or create is 100 with ZFS only 4. (With a two Core CPU only a load of 2 can be handled at a time.)
Of course the CPU% is nearly 100% on both.
The CPU load as reported on Linux is meaningless. tRAID keeps your CPU active on purpose, which leads to a wrong load value. This was discussed on the forum before.

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My system is a Supermicro Serverboard with Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8600 @ 3.33GHz, 2 cores and 8GB RAM, Linux Ubuntu Server 14.04.3.
The disks are on a LSI Logic SAS2008 SATA/3 Controller.
Why did you have to load kernel 3.19 if you are running 14.04.3? From your previous thread, I though you were on 14.04 and did not want to upgrade to 14.04.3.
If you have 14.04.3, you just need to boot to 3.19.0-25-generic, which is installed by default.

Take the time to better understand the system, after which you will be able to make better comparisons against other systems.

Offline dremeier

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Re: NZFS vs ZFS
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2015, 02:11:04 am »
How is a system that provides an easy to use GUI more complicated than a command line tool with lot of technicalities?  ???
Any system that is unfamiliar always feels more complicated than one you are familiar with. You will find tRAID super easy once you become comfortable with it.
The System and understanding of flexRaid GUI is much more complicate due to not knowing what to do fist and how to maintenance, most complicate is to prepare the Disks with just a Label für PPU and a Partion for DRU. The Wizard in FlexRAID is really perfect to start but then....
For example: I´m building the system now, let it run for one year and after one year I´ll change the pool or so on, then I have to lean the system again, have to format new disks. With an easy using commandline context like ZFS I just hit ' zpool status' and I'm in the loop again. Nevertheless I would appreciate flexRaid!
The view from an expert and developer like you, of course is different.

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Or you could just use a supported distro. ;)
What du you mean, is ubuntu a unsupported distro?


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Either you mean TB and not GB or you are being sarcastic.
Further, you can initialize a tRAID array in seconds by choosing to do nothing and defer parity computation to later, which is exactly what your instant zpool initialization does.
O sorry, yes I mean 10TB. Yes initiate a tRAID in seconds, right, but to start it, to be able to use it, it took more than 10 hours (in my System for the 10TB) until the parity was written. Maybe I did something wrong but then we are at the fist point.

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First, tRAID is not designed for performance as it does not stripe data. It is designed for a different purpose. If you want performance, then you need FlexRAID Standards.
Last, if your Landing Disk is only giving your 50MB/s, then that your own choice. You could easily use a fast SSD as landing disk and get 500MB/s.
So, really pointless comparison.
My Landing disk is a 40GB SSD (old one) with more than 150 MB/s read/write. Without the Landingdisk I had less performance.

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The CPU load as reported on Linux is meaningless. tRAID keeps your CPU active on purpose, which leads to a wrong load value. This was discussed on the forum before.
Ok, but I find the CPU Load very useful.

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Why did you have to load kernel 3.19 if you are running 14.04.3? From your previous thread, I though you were on 14.04 and did not want to upgrade to 14.04.3.
If you have 14.04.3, you just need to boot to 3.19.0-25-generic, which is installed by default.
My previous System was 14.04.1- yes. Then I  upgrade to 14.04.3 (sudo apt-get install linux-generic-lts-vivid) to be able to use FlexRaid . After the upgrade to 14.04.3 I got kernel version 3.19.0-30. Then I had to install Kernel 3.19.0-25 (apt-get install linux-headers-3.19.0-25 linux-headers-3.19.0-25-generic linux-image-3.19.0-25-generic linux-image-extra-3.19.0-25-generic linux-lts-vivid-tools-3.19.0-25 thermald fdutils) to be able to install FelxRaid.

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Take the time to better understand the system, after which you will be able to make better comparisons against other systems.
Yes, I took more than one week playing with FlexRaid every day. I´ll take more time with felxRAID and hopefully Standards with my comming new Xeon E2600 Server ;)
I realy want to use FelxRaid because I find that this system is on the right track. But at the moment I can´t setup my hole system from the scratch and with the running system it is not possible to get felxRAID running.
I just want to give others an overview from a non IT-Expert.

Hopefully I´m wrong in any point, and one day FlexRAID become the perfect System also for me. I really appreciate the FlexRAID System, and I hope it´ll become a more popular system! ;D


Offline Brahim

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Re: NZFS vs ZFS
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2015, 06:50:57 am »
The System and understanding of flexRaid GUI is much more complicate due to not knowing what to do fist and how to maintenance, most complicate is to prepare the Disks with just a Label für PPU and a Partion for DRU. The Wizard in FlexRAID is really perfect to start but then....
For example: I´m building the system now, let it run for one year and after one year I´ll change the pool or so on, then I have to lean the system again, have to format new disks. With an easy using commandline context like ZFS I just hit ' zpool status' and I'm in the loop again. Nevertheless I would appreciate flexRaid!
The view from an expert and developer like you, of course is different.
At least, we can agree that it is the unfamiliarity that makes it complicated.
I also fully agree that there as many aspects developers and advanced users take for granted, but which confuses new users. The challenge is really in anticipating the background of the user in order to put things into a context he/she is familiar with.
If you make it too concise, some will wonder about the details. If you make it too detailed, some will wish for conciseness.

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What du you mean, is ubuntu a unsupported distro?
Ubuntu is, but you are not using the official release of it.

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O sorry, yes I mean 10TB. Yes initiate a tRAID in seconds, right, but to start it, to be able to use it, it took more than 10 hours (in my System for the 10TB) until the parity was written. Maybe I did something wrong but then we are at the fist point.
Once you initialize the array by doing nothing, you can immediately start the array and the pool.
As stated before, you are basically deferring parity computation to later after the array is up and running. What you would do is start the array and then run the Verify & Sync operation in the background while the array is up.

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My Landing disk is a 40GB SSD (old one) with more than 150 MB/s read/write. Without the Landingdisk I had less performance.
I don't know of a single 40GB SSD that does more than 50MB/s write. In fact, the Intel 320 40 GB only does 45MB/s in its specs.
So, the point still remains that, this performance aspect is your own choice. The Landing Disk has very little overhead and you should get close to the performance of its backing disk.

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Ok, but I find the CPU Load very useful.
Many people find it useful. However, with a system like tRAID, it loses its context.
The tool is flawed in how it measure loads. tRAID makes better use of your system, which you paid money for. It is funny how we pay money for resources but only want little of it used.  :)
tRAID uses little of your CPUs, but makes proper use of each parallel pipeline to minimize latency.
We will have more discussion on this topic once Standards is out, since it (optionally) goes a step further to squeeze the most out of your system.

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My previous System was 14.04.1- yes. Then I  upgrade to 14.04.3 (sudo apt-get install linux-generic-lts-vivid) to be able to use FlexRaid . After the upgrade to 14.04.3 I got kernel version 3.19.0-30. Then I had to install Kernel 3.19.0-25 (apt-get install linux-headers-3.19.0-25 linux-headers-3.19.0-25-generic linux-image-3.19.0-25-generic linux-image-extra-3.19.0-25-generic linux-lts-vivid-tools-3.19.0-25 thermald fdutils) to be able to install FelxRaid.
Yeah, that's not how you upgrade your distro. You need to do an actual dist upgrade. Google for instructions.
Better yet, you might want to start clean and install LTS 14.04.03. It may seem like a minor revision from 14.04.01, but it is actually a third major release with three major kernel changes (3.13, 3.16, 3.19). Ubuntu is very screwed up in its LTS strategy (don't get me started on that  :().
With any other distro, these would be major distro version releases.
You are still on 14.04.1 with a different kernel image, which is likely the source of your many troubles.

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Yes, I took more than one week playing with FlexRaid every day. I´ll take more time with felxRAID and hopefully Standards with my comming new Xeon E2600 Server ;)
I realy want to use FelxRaid because I find that this system is on the right track. But at the moment I can´t setup my hole system from the scratch and with the running system it is not possible to get felxRAID running.
I just want to give others an overview from a non IT-Expert.

Hopefully I´m wrong in any point, and one day FlexRAID become the perfect System also for me. I really appreciate the FlexRAID System, and I hope it´ll become a more popular system! ;D
Glad that you are sharing your experience. It will certainly help others who might have some of the questions or need for clarification you had.  :)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 07:01:58 am by Brahim »